Need advice on setting up a reef tank.

[LabTest57]

Regular marine tanks are a peace of cake for me, however, keeping and maintaining corals,etc. is something new that I want to do.

I want to convert a 120 gallon marine tank into a reef tank.

So far, I have these products on my check-list:

-Reef Salt
-Reef Carbonate
-Reef Plus
-De*Nitrate
-Seachem Stability
-Purigen
-Matrix



_____________________________________

I need to know how often I should test for water parameters (I can't test every day though)?

What are the major nutrients (2-3 most common at least) that corals exhaust the most and what I should use as a broad spectrum + safe (easy w/o any problems) mineral-restoration product?

Also, for colonizing the Matrix and De*Nitrate with anaerobic/aerobic bacteria by soaking with Seachem Stability (for "x" amount of days), what kind of water can I use (e.g. salt or freshwater) as the bacterial strains in Stability are able to adapt to both environments? Can the bacteria tolerate drastic changes in salinity (e.g. fresh to saltwater immediately)?

[Tech Support DD]

Congrats on your venture into reef tanks :-) The products you have listed are a good starting point; the one I would recommend adding is Reef Complete (as your calcium additive). When first setting up a reef tank, it is very important to test as often as possible (twice a week is great, but this is ultimately your choice). Once your levels are steady and everything is stable (i.e., dosing, maintenance, etc.), then it is still a good idea to test once a week, if possible. For example, I test the following parameters in our reef tanks at least once a week: pH, alkalinity, calcium, and magnesium. The major nutrients that corals exhaust the most would be calcium and carbonates (if you are keeping soft corals, iodide is also important). To supplement those nutrients, I would recommend Reef Complete and Reef Carbonate (or your could use our new two-part system, Reef Fusion). What products you will need to add will vary depending upon the needs of your tank; there is not really a "blanket" answer to this question. To colonize the de*nitrate and Matrix you will be using in your tank, I would recommend putting the media in the filter of your tank and adding Stability as instructed on the label; that should establish your biological filter fairly quickly. Good luck!

[LabTest57]

Thanks for the great advice. I think Reef Fusion is something I would definately use as supplement, however, should I replace it for total kH and gH maintenance?

How would you compare the difference in ionic calcium concentration between Reef Fusion (the one that raises calcium) and Reef complete? In other words, does 160,000 mg/l (from reef complete) make any difference in calcium absorption as opposed to a 100,000 mg/l concentration (from the reef fusion product)?

Also, I thought corals use up magnesium as well? If not, Reef Complete, Carbonate, and Plus should be enough ( Reef Fusion contains magnesium, and I won't use it just for that but only if it's cheaper than the other products mentioned above).

[Tech Support LK]

GH is not really a term that is of value in Reef Keeping. GH refers to mineral content, which won't be of a measurable value (using a standard hobbyist test kit) in a saltwater aquarium. When referring to mineral content, we use the term salinity or specific gravity in dealing with a saltwater environment. For this, I highly recommend purchasing a refractometer or hydrometer.

Reef Fusion 1 and Reef Fusion 2 can be used as your calcium and alkalinity raising/maintaining products. You will need nothing else for alkalinity or calcium besides these 2 products. The concentration of the calcium supplement you use has no impact on how quickly calcium will be taken in by the organisms. The two part supplement dosing is simply an easier method of supplementation.

Corals take in calcium and magnesium at a 100:5 ratio, so supplementing magnesium will be much less frequent, but will still need to be done (especially depending upon what the levels in your salt mix are. For this I highly recommend our ions product from the aquavitro line (one of my favorites).

[LabTest57]

I use both standard hobbyist test-strip kits and drop test kits (Lamotte). They seem to both give accurate results on kH and gH, however, I haven't really thought that the specific gravity or salt concentration had anything to do with gH. I always view gH as calcium hardness with lesser amounts of other important minerals (e.g. magnesium). I know for fact that specific gravity is basically the salt concentration in the water.

Very high calcium (and/or other minerals) levels won't make any big differences in the specific gravity of the solution, however, salt can easily change the density of water.

I would need a hydrometer, but I can use complex calculations (stored in some archives at my home office) to regulate the proper specific gravity levels in the reef tank as I have in my marine tank. To prove the complex function as being correct, I usually take a sampe of the water once a week to my LFS or LPS to test the specific gravity. In most cases, it averages out in the recommended range for the type of fish I have (forgot the values though, I'll mention it later in another question another day). =)

[Tech Support LK]

Whatever works best for you :)

[LabTest57]

Seems like to me you don't believe that what I'm saying is true or agreeable.

__________________________________________________ _________________

Is it not true that the four major ions found in seawater are: Sodium, Magnesium, Chlorides, and Sulfates? And, that a change in calcium (ionic calcium) concentration would not cause much of a change on specific gravity?

I do understand that gH or general hardness is "generally" a conentration of calcium and magnesium cations. However, sodium chloride or the sodium and chloride ions in the solution are what makes the most significant impact on specific gravity (35 ppt of sodium chloride solution has the same specific gravity as S = 35 seawater).

So, every other ion does only minor changes.....


I do have long/huge math formulas that give me an estimation and a step by step process for reaching a certain specific garvity value based on temeprature, water volume, salt mix,etc.

I would only get to that point once I get my reef tank up and running, however, my marine tank at the moment is maintained with precise measurements of salt mixes, pure water (RO), and carbonate, bicarbonate, calcium, and magnesium salts. Though, I have already experimented countless of times to figure how much water is evaporated and how much of "X" minerals/salts are depeleted every month,etc (just a bunch of variables in one huge function). =)

[LabTest57]

GH is not really a term that is of value in Reef Keeping. GH refers to mineral content, which won't be of a measurable value (using a standard hobbyist test kit) in a saltwater aquarium. When referring to mineral content, we use the term salinity or specific gravity in dealing with a saltwater environment. For this, I highly recommend purchasing a refractometer or hydrometer.

A rise in specific gravity is useful to gauge how much salt is in the water, however, it cannot tell you what is in the water, but if you are using an appropriate salt mix, it can tell you how much is there and whether it approximates natural seawater or not.

[Tech Support LK]

Yes; you are correct that salinity or specific gravity will not tell you how much of each element is present. A kit that measures these things individually would be the only way to determine if your parameters are appropriate.

[Tech Support LK]

[QUOTE=LabTest57;7599]Seems like to me you don't believe that what I'm saying is true or agreeable.

I was only responding to your desire to use "complex calculations" to determine specific gravity rather than a hydrometer. As you know, this hobby is very circumstantial in that what works best for one person, is certainly not always the case for others.

[LabTest57]

Why not change the dosing/mixing directions to mix more salt in order to reach a specific gravity of 1.025 at "70 degrees Fahrenheit", which is closer to the 20 degrees Celsius temperature standard.

From 60 to 80 degrees Fahrenheit, there can be a lot of inconsistencies for +/- changes in specific gravity of the solution w/ the salt mix. I personally find it easier, when one uses a standard with a more accurate value of specific gravity "for which reef tanks can be optimally set-up and maintained at."

At 75 degrees fahrenheit with a specific gravity of 1.021, tells me that the salt mix doesn't contain enough sodium. NSW = 35 ppt of salinty, however, SSW (Seachem Sea Water) = <35 ppt of salinty. Using temp. standards makes it easier to mathematically estimate how much "X" salt mix is needed at "X" temeprature of water/solution. Of course, I can't type the real formula here (any special charatcers are practically unallowed due to symbol restrictions,etc.), however, this will be the first time I use a salt mix that gives me the actual specific gravity at a specific temp. I will try to test/experiment and see how accurate the value really is.

[LabTest57]

At 75 degrees fahrenheit with a specific gravity of 1.021, tells me that the salt mix doesn't contain enough sodium. NSW = 35 ppt of salinty, however, SSW (Seachem Sea Water) = <35 ppt of salinty. .

More correctly SSW yields ~31.43 ppt of salinty. Since Reef Tanks need to be maintained at tropical temps., one would need to add a lot more salt mix at a temeprature of 75 to 78 degrees Fahrenheit. Although water volume will increase, density, however, decreases. If a specific gravity 1.025 were achieveable with this salt mix at 70 degrees Fahrenheit, values between 1.023 and 1.025 (i.e. values less than 1.025, but no lower than 1.023 is possible) would be in the recommended range for the 75 to 80 degree temperature range of most Reef Tanks.

The optimum temperature range is 75 to 85 degrees fahrenheit. Something too low as 70 isn't good, however, it's the lowest average temps. in air-conditioned offices, stores, etc. Something as high as 89 isn't bad, but anything beyond 90 is a bit extreme; however, only corals have been recorded to be able tolerate such temperatures (fish and invertebrates weren't on the list that I reviewed from NOAA...).

You can see why it is neccessary to change the salt mix directions, because hobbyists will go with the recommended, which isn't really the "recommended" i.e. the amount of salt mix based on specific gravity and temperature of the solution/water.

[LabTest57]

I've decided to drop this topic, I hate to start any controversies again. Anyway, I can't comment against those who have a PhD in biology,etc... =)

[Tech Support LK]

Although, you are not interested in continuing this discussion, I think it is important for others reading this thread to understand the difference between measuring specific gravity and salinity and why the instructions on our new Salinity salt are written in the manner they are.

The driving force for Salinity (our product) is the replication of natural seawater, to the very best of our ability. To that end, we have collected data on all the oceans of the Earth, dating back to the nineteenth century. We used the averages of these data to arrive at targets for ionic composition.

Now, some of the targets we aim at are independent of temperature. Others are not. For those values that vary with temperature, we have two choices: we can specify a temperature, or we can specify some relevant parameter that is temperature-independent, such as salinity. In the world of physical chemistry, a standard temperature, and a standard pressure are specified. In the world of chemical oceanography, a standard salinity is generally specified. There are good reasons for that choice. The temperatures of the Earth’s oceans show considerable variability, as you might expect (consider, for example, swimming in the Arctic Ocean, as opposed to swimming in the Pacific Ocean off the Kona coast.) There is variability in salinity as well (see Millero’s Chemical Oceanography, Chapter One, for some informative diagrams), but the variability in salinity is not as great as in temperature. Millero’s Figure 1.14, for example, shows a variability of 33 to 36 ppt over a latitude range from 60 degrees south latitude to 60 degrees north latitude.

Whether this is the primary reason why salinity was chosen for a standard, I couldn’t say. That standard has been around longer than I have lived, and I am loath to argue with every oceanographer now working in the field.

So, we specify the pH, alkalinity, and ionic content of Salinity (our product) made to a standard salinity of 35 ppt. You state that the standard temperature is 20 degrees Celsius: that is news to me. The fact that it isn’t is one good reason not to target that temperature. And since we really are concerned with density, not specific gravity, and density varies with temperature, we do not specify specific gravity as a benchmark.

There are not (as you state) a lot of inconsistencies in specific gravity over the 20 degree Fahrenheit range you quote. There are, instead, inconsistencies in density, which we avoid by specifying a standard salinity.

Specifying a standard salinity has one final advantage. It is quite easy to calculate (if you have the list of raw materials that go into the salt) the amount of salt that ought to be added in order to hit a specific salinity. We calculated, and later confirmed by extensive laboratory work, that 36.269 grams of Salinity (our product), diluted up to a final liquid volume of 1 liter, will give you a salinity of 35 ppt. Of course, you will not be weighing the salt to the nearest milligram, and you will have some uncertainty in the measurement of your total volume, if you are like most hobbyists. But you will find that this quantity of salt added to the appropriate volume of water will, regardless of water temperature, give you a nice, consistent, repeatable 35 ppt salinity. And that target will give you a nice, consistent, repeatable pH, alkalinity, and ionic content, time after time, regardless of temperature.

As for the remainder of your comments, you seem to focus on the wrong variable. Specific gravity is important ONLY insofar as it is representative of density (if corrected for temperature), and density matters ONLY insofar as it affects ionic content (i.e., salinity.) So, when you state that “SSW yields ~31.43 ppt of salinity,” that is true only if you don’t read and follow the directions on the label. We guarantee ionic content at a specific salinity: we do not guarantee results if the instructions are not followed.

I hope this helps. At the least, I hope you can see why it is not necessary at all to change the directions, because salinity (and not specific gravity or temperature) is the key.