Controling Nitrate Removal......?

[Naja002]

Hi,

This 2-Part Question is in reference to a different setup than the others recently posted here by me.

I am planning on setting up a Nitrate removal system using De*Nitrate. I have a plant filter/sump on this system, so I do want some consistant nitrates= 10-20ppm.

How can I control the amount of Nitrate being removed---if there is too much being removed? Slight increase in water-flow?

Right now I am just debating how to go about it:

1) a PVC system similar to the diagram here:

http://s50.photobucket.com/albums/f347/Naja002/?action=view&current=DeNitrateDiagram.jpg&refPage=&imgAnch=imgAnch1

It would be vertical, about 30" total height and flow in and out of a 30" high Plant Filter/Sump--(already setup and running).

Or

2) One of the "Use the DeNitriate Bottle" Systems Here:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=785453

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=814978

Would #1 provide Greater Benefit/Control?

Many Thanx!

[Tech Support BB]

Provided that you employ a gate valve to control the flow into the reactor, option #1 would give you much better control. As you have guessed, the best way to control nitrate reduction is to slowly increase the flow. Higher flow = more oxygen = fewer anaerobic bacteria.

[Naja002]

Thanx!

I have one more question in reference to the Nitrate Removal System #1 above:

What is the size of De*Nitrate?

I will need/want to block the De*Nitrate in each chamber and want the 1/2" PVC U-connection on the bottom free-flowing and also at the top of chamber 2 before it returns back to the system.

Thanx!

[Tech Support BB]

It is a ground product, so the size does vary because of its irregularity, but the smallest dimension averages 3-5 mm.

[Naja002]

Hi,

I am hoping to continue this thread for My convenience, Yours and Anyone else that may find value in it now and in the future. So, Please stick with me here.....

I have built the #1 Nitrate Removal System(NRS) Referenced above. It will hold approx. 1.95L of De*nitrate which is 1x-2x what is recommended. The system is currently a total of approx. 85gal., but will hopefully increase another 30gal. shortly. I am currently just waiting on the De*Nitrate to arrive.

I assume that the answer is "No", but I want to be sure: Can I expect any type of Ammonia or Nitrite spike when I start up the NRS? The system at large is fully cycled--so there are no issues there.....I intend to start the NRS and "overdose" it with Stability, also adding extra to the system at large. Is there any possible negative effects to the water quality over the first few days? Weeks? that I should be aware of.....?

I have begun using Purigen on 3 other setups and WoW! the water clarifying properties of it are fantastic! I have been using a Blackwater additive (Kents) to the setup at hand and may NEED to continue to do so (for the Acids), but I am going to discontiune that (at least temporarily) and add Purigen to the system.

So You can understand my situation and that it is outside of the norm: I am dealing with an Acrochordus javanicus, which is a Fully Aquatic Snake. They are Extremely Sensitive. Zoos cannot manage any Long-term success (over 6 months) and only a Handful of people (literally!) on this planet can keep them alive "Long-term". I do not yet know if I am one of those people, but, if not--I am close. I have over 30 yrs herping experience and about 2yrs of working with Acrochordus species. They are animals that are Extremely Sensitive to "Stress" which includes Light, Temps, Water Quality, Vibrations, and the list goes on.

Here is a URL to a pic of the current A. javanicus that I am dealing with.....The smear of Duckweed is from Drip-Acclimating some Food (Comet Goldfish):

http://s50.photobucket.com/albums/f347/Naja002/?action=view&current=A-3.jpg&refPage=&imgAnch=imgAnch8

I also have a second question in reference to Your Products that I will put in a separate post below....

[Naja002]

If You have not already done so, Please read the post above this one for a separate question.....Thanx!

I have ordered Paraguard, Focus and Aquazole....it will arrive soon with the De*NItrate.

I intend to treat the system at large above with the Paraguard. I realize that Seachem really cannot tell me about using its products on Reptiles, so my question here is more in reference to Theory and Process.....

What I would like to do is 1) treat the feeder Fish (comets) externally with Paraguard and internally with the Focus/Aquazole and then 2) treat some of them directly before feeding them to the A. javanicus in an effort to treat the A.javanicus internally for parasites.

The A. javanicus' Digestive system is Fast and Complete. In about 48hrs they digest their meals completely--Scales, bones and all.

So, I guess my question is: At least in theory, should the Aquazole that is in the stomach content of the feeder fish transfer to the digestive tract of the A. javanicus? If so, is it reasonable to assume that it would have a positive impact on any(not all) of the parasites that the snake may be harboring in its digestive tract?

I assume all risk here. I realize that Seachem is not in the business of reptiles, so I am not asking for any Guarantees of any kind. One thing that I Truly Like and Respect about Seachem is that You thoroughly Research Your Products. So, this is not a What do You "Know" about it in this situation--its just a What Do You "Think" about it question. Again, it is Clear on My end that I have to make the final decisions here and that I assume All Risk.

Any Thoughts or Insights would be Greatly Appreciated!

Apologies for the "Book", but I feel that I need to be as Clear as Possible about my unique situation.

Thanx!

[Tech Support BB]

Regarding the NRS, you will have no ammonia spike when setting up, neither will the additional Stability cause a problem. I applaud your attempts to maintain this incredibly difficult specimen.

In theory, your medication scheme should work. You might also consider using GarlicGuard with the food mixture to help prevent internal parasites.

ParaGuard is a broad spectrum disinfectant, so it works remarkably well as a prophylactic. if you begin to see signs of any identifiable diseases, i recommend you attempt to treat with a medication intended specifically for the pathogen present.

Good luck, and keep us updated on your progress!

[Naja002]

Thank You for Your Input and Support.

I just wanted to post the links here to the pix of the NRS that I've built for future reference for Others:

http://s50.photobucket.com/albums/f347/Naja002/?action=view&current=DeNitrateSystemwText.jpg&refPage=&imgAnch=imgAnch1

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f347/Naja002/DeNitrateSystemSideview.jpg

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f347/Naja002/DeNitrateSystemBottomview.jpg

Also, for Clarification: I am not going to mount this vertically. I made it to fit horizontally underneath the tank itself up inside the stand.

I currently have some Kent's Garlic Xtreme, so I may use that for a flavor enhancer. But the Feeder Fish (Comets) will eat pretty much anything, so I am currently planning to mix the Focus and Aquazole with Frozen Chopped Spinich to see how well they like it. I have become a Big Fan of Seachem Products, so when the Garlic Xtreme is gone.....I will try the Garlic Guard.

Thanx!

[Naja002]

Ok, the NRS is hooked up.

It holds ~3.5L of De*Nitrate.

Nitrates tested at 5-10ppm, so we'll see how it goes....

Best calculation is 37.5gph of flow (80oz in 60 seconds).

Seeded with 20ml of Stability.

I found this comment on the net in reference to Denitrification. I assume it is in reference to the "pockets" that can develop in substrate:

"DENITRIFICATION:

Is the process of converting Nitrates (NO3) in to Nitrogen (N2), which is dispersed into the atmosphere. This process can take place in an environment without oxygen by anaerobic bacteria. This process is more common in Marine aquaria and takes place in fine #00 sand, , live rock, or “aquarium mud”. In freshwater aquariums this process often produces deadly Hydrogen Sulfide, but by maintaining an oxygen level above 1 ppm, this can be avoided. "

Can I expect any problems from "deadly Hydrogen Sulfide" or any other negative By-product from the NRS setup as above? Is this a Real Concern for this type of NRS?

Thanx!

[Tech Support BB]

You should have no worries about hydrogen sulfide. Sulfur-fixing bacteria can only exist in true anaerobic conditions, meaning absolutely zero dissolved oxygen, which is virtually impossible to intentionally create in an aquarium. In true anaerobic environments, not even de-nitrifying bacteria can survive. What we are actually creating is technically a hypoxic environment, meaning there is very, very little oxygen, but still enough to allow bacteria to respire. This is the environment in which de-nitrifying bacteria thrive. True anaerobic environments generally only occur in very deep beds of incredibly fine sand or soil, where the only water movement comes from osmotic activity. In a de*nitrate reactor, there will be enough oxygen to prevent a true anaerobic environment from forming while still allowing de-nitrification to occur. You will see no ammonia or nitrite spike when you add the media, as it is inert, and you need not worry about hydrogen sulfide with Stability anyway, as the bacteria in the product are non-sulfur-fixing.

[Naja002]

Great Thanx!

I increased the flow to 44gph, because of other things I was doing, but I may tweak it back down to the ~35gph range.

Either way, Its only been a week, but I tested nitrates (and everything else) yesterday and they were still at 10ppm. The bioload for the system (~110g) is low, but there is a Plant Filter which I do not currently dose nitrates for....As long as the level stays low I may not dose nitrates.

I am not one to do a lot of testing, but right now its the only way for me to develope a long-term "gauge" on this setup. I will definitely report back on how things are going with this NRS.

Thanx!

[Tech Support JR]

You're very welcome! :)

[Naja002]

Hi,

I just wanted to post a non-conclusive update.....

When I added the NRS nitrates were at about 10ppm. The overall setup has under-gone various changes aimed at overall stability and my convenience.

I ran the NRS for ~2wks and then it was unhooked/not running for probably another couple of wks, and then it was/has been hooked up since then. The system has a Plant Filter full of Fast-growing Hygrophilia polysperma and Hp 'ceylon' that has been functional the entire time. Nitrates have stayed in the 5-15ppm range according to the AP test kit. Both times that I have hooked up the NRS--I have Pre-loaded it with about 20ml of Stability (Great Product!). With the NRS nitrates seem to stay at about 10ppm. With just the plant filter they seem to stay at about 15ppm. Most recently I have been switching over to very soft water, doing Large WCs of 70%+ weekly w/ 100% RO and with the NRS and Plant Filter--Nitrates have been 5-10ppm: Hard to tell.

Like I said: This is just a Non-conclusive update. I realize that it takes time for the NRS to get into full swing, and with my unhooking it--it has just cause a delay of that.

I guess that I do have a Question while I am here:

I realize that the plants in the plant filter will take what they need from the water and bottom out nitrates (=Zero nitrates).

Without the plant filter involved: Will the denitrafying bacteria of the NRS do the same, or will their population only grow to a point that will maintain a certain minimum level? Hope that makes sense.....

Any thoughts would be Greatly Appreciated!

I will update this in the future with hopefully more conclusive things to offer!

Thanx!

[Tech Support RS]

Yes, over time the denitrifying bacteria of the NRS should bottom out nitrates without the plant filter. However, the reduction of your nitrate level in your NRS alone depends on the population growth of your denitrifying bacteria. Based on the amount of De*nitrate you use in your filtration and the amount of nitrate cycling your system, the population of denitrifying bacteria will grow up to a certain point until space (i.e. De*nitrate) and/or food (i.e. nitrates) becomes limited. To effectively zero out your nitrate level with the NRS, it is beneficial to have plenty of space for the denitrifying bacteria so that only the bacteria's food becomes limited. Too much nitrate and too little De*nitrate, in addition to less than ideal water flow going through De*nitrate, will not give you the low nitrate level that you are aiming for because space becomes limited before the nitrate is taken out of the system. Overall, as long as these factors are covered, you should effectively lower your nitrate level in your tank.

[Naja002]

Ok, Thanx. It made sense after I thought about it: aerobic bacteria zero-out A mmonia and Nitrates, so it would logically follow.....

Another Question, I guess:

I will need to maintain a low(5-20ppm) level of Nitrates for the Plants in the Plant Filter.

I know I can add KNO3 to the system.

I know I can increase flow through the NRS to decrease the Nitrate removal.

Is adding KN03 a Better "Form" or "Quality" of Nitrate then the general nitrogenous waste and Nitrates produced from that waste?

In other words, would it be the same--for water quality--to increase the flow through the NRS and reduce nitrate removal, or would I somehow be better-off by allowing the NRS to do its job completely and just add KN03?

I had to reduce the size/volume of the NRS in order to get it to fit under the stand. It currently holds about 3L of De*Nitrate on a ~110g system. Roughly 3X the amount of De*Nitrate Recommended.

I am trying to get prepared for the "Balance" that I am going to need....

Any Thoughts?

Thanx!