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  • Prime lifetime in the tank

    I hope Seachem can clear up some serious confusion over Prime when used in a freshwater aquarium.

    If I have ammonia in the water and I add Prime then according to Seachem it only renders the ammonia non-lethal for 24 hours?

    So after 24 hours the ammonia the Prime has changed state to non-toxic will now turn back into a toxic state?

    Which can't be right surely? Other water conditioners don't do this.

    Can Seachem point out where this 24 hour time period is mentioned on their product pages? I could only find it mentioned on your support forum.

    i.e. "Because Prime only works for 24-48 hours, its effects do not build up over time."

    But everyone I know seems to quote this day limit.

    I'm confused and so it seems are a great many others.

  • #2
    Re: Prime lifetime in the tank

    I think Prime works two ways: It converts ammonia to a non-toxic state like how all other water conditioners do, however, unlike most water conditoners, it also binds the ammonia so it won't affect the fish for 24 to 48 hours. Technically, the non-toxic state is ammonium; however, ammonium still affects the fish if it is in a large conentration - making it slightly lethal.
    Last edited by LabTest57; 07-25-2009, 16:37.

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    • #3
      Re: Prime lifetime in the tank

      Originally posted by LabTest57 View Post
      I think Prime works two ways: It converts ammonia to a non-toxic state like how all other water conditioners do, however, unlike most water conditoners, it also binds the ammonia so it won't affect the fish for 24 to 48 hours. Technically, the non-toxic state is ammonium; however, ammonium still affects the fish if it is in a large concentration - making it slightly lethal.
      Seachem told me that Prime does not convert ammonia to Ammonium, it binds it to some other inert substance.

      But I need to know if this is truly 24 hours.

      Ammonium would indeed need to be at a very high level to be toxic to most fish!

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      • #4
        Re: Prime lifetime in the tank

        I'm sure you misunderstood, if not Seachem is really lying to us...


        the inert substance is really a "non-toxic cyclic amine" or "ionic ammonia" or "less-toxic ammonium (NH4)". It really doesn't matter, what matters the most is that it can only bind nitrites and nitrates for 24 to 48 hours. In your case, Prime only lasts 24 to 48 hours if it has nothing to bind to, e.g. no ammonia, chlorine, and/or chloramine. If these are the elements your worried about, then Prime will work for your; however, nitrites and nitrates will be the only "temporary (24 to 48 hour)" problem.

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        • #5
          Re: Prime lifetime in the tank

          Originally posted by LabTest57 View Post
          I
          the inert substance is really a "non-toxic cyclic amine" or "ionic ammonia" or "less-toxic ammonium (NH4)". It really doesn't matter, what matters the most is that it can only bind nitrites and nitrates for 24 to 48 hours. In your case, Prime only lasts 24 to 48 hours if it has nothing to bind to, e.g. no ammonia, chlorine, and/or chloramine. If these are the elements your worried about, then Prime will work for your; however, nitrites and nitrates will be the only "temporary (24 to 48 hour)" problem.
          That sounds interesting. Do we know why it only lasts 24-48h when diluted in aquarium water? I assume its something in the water (bacteria, TDS?) or do you think it evaporates?

          I'm hoping Seachem will jump in and give confirmation on all of this.
          I've got a lot of uneasy Prime owners in a 300+ member forum waiting for an answer. :-)

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Prime lifetime in the tank

            Thanks for posting ya'll! There was a discussion on Prime at monsterfishkeepers.com forum a while ago that I think will address all of your questions. Our research manager gave a very in depth scientific answer on how and why Prime works the way it does. Please follow the link below to see this discussion:

            http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=254698&highlight=prime&page=13

            I really hope this clears some things up! After you have read this and still have unanswered questions please don't hesitate to ask us!

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Prime lifetime in the tank

              Based on the info., I guess it depends on how many and/or what type of plants you have, and/or how much anaerobic bacteria is available in the tank to consume the nitrates for 24 to 48 hours.


              Although it states that a 5x does should be used to lower nitrates, does that mean Prime will last longer in the aquarium?

              In my aquarium I have no ammonia nor nitrite (based on test results), so does that mean a regular dose of Prime would handle my nitrates more efficiently than if there were ammonia, nitirites, chloramines,etc. present?

              Is it really necessary for a 5x dose to lower nitrates? What would you call a "High" level of nitrates, in which it would be considered an "emergency" for any fish?
              Last edited by LabTest57; 07-27-2009, 21:18.

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              • #8
                Re: Prime lifetime in the tank

                Originally posted by TechSupport AN View Post
                Thanks for posting ya'll! There was a discussion on Prime at monsterfishkeepers.com forum a while ago that I think will address all of your questions. Our research manager gave a very in depth scientific answer on how and why Prime works the way it does. Please follow the link below to see this discussion:

                http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=254698&highlight=prime&page=13

                I really hope this clears some things up! After you have read this and still have unanswered questions please don't hesitate to ask us!
                I'm surprised you would only have such an important statement on someone else's web site and not your own.

                I did a lot of Google searching on Prime and never once did I come across this web site.

                Well at least the external link is on your Support forum for the moment..

                But your supplied link does not really answer my members questions.


                I quote a statement made by Seachem Support:
                reference: http://www.seachem.com/support/forums/archive/index.php/t-290.html

                "Prime does remove chloramine. But the way it does this is it breaks the bond between ammonia and chlorine (components of chloramine). It then reduces the chlorine to chloride, which is safe. And binds the ammonia so that it is non toxic for about 24 hours. In a cycled aquarium this would be plenty of time for the bacteria to consume it. In an uncycled aquarium you are just adding more ammonia to the bacteria that are already overwhelmed."

                This strongly applies that after 24h the toxic Ammonia is back.

                So if you could..

                Does Prime render the ammonia it has converted non-toxic forever or does this converted ammonia go toxic again after 24-48 hours?

                Thanks. :)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Prime lifetime in the tank

                  Originally posted by LabTest57 View Post
                  Although it states that a 5x does should be used to lower nitrates, does that mean Prime will last longer in the aquarium?

                  No.

                  In my aquarium I have no ammonia nor nitrite (based on test results), so does that mean a regular dose of Prime would handle my nitrates more efficiently than if there were ammonia, nitirites, chloramines,etc. present?

                  Yes.

                  Is it really necessary for a 5x dose to lower nitrates? What would you call a "High" level of nitrates, in which it would be considered an "emergency" for any fish?
                  No. Usually about 40ppm.

                  Originally posted by quatermass View Post
                  Does Prime render the ammonia it has converted non-toxic forever or does this converted ammonia go toxic again after 24-48 hours?

                  Thanks. :)
                  The ammonia could potentially convert back to toxic ammonia after, at minimum, 24 hours unless picked up by your biological filter.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Prime lifetime in the tank

                    I see why it makes sense, for a business, not to disclose information like that. If Seachem were to put all of this into a brief description of how Prime truly works, people might not buy the product, because other products do not share the same information; they would assume Amquel converts ammonia to a non-toxic state permanently, because it doesn't state that the "ammonia will convert back to its' toxic state" after a certain period of time.

                    Although the scientist at seachem know Product X is worse than Prime and the conversion of ammonia from non-toxic to toxic after a certain amount of time works in a similar manner for both products, they wouldn't tell you the "Cons" of their product.

                    I think it would just be wise to dose Prime every 24 to 48 hours, until the ammonia is down to a safe level. For a quarantine or an uncycled tank, this applies as well, however, it should also state that Stability should be used in conjunction.
                    Last edited by Tech Support DD; 08-06-2009, 10:03.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Prime lifetime in the tank

                      Well said. Thanks for being aware enough to put that together without me having to say it :)

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                      • #12
                        Re: Prime lifetime in the tank

                        Originally posted by LabTest57 View Post
                        I see why it makes sense, for a business, not to disclose information like that. If Seachem were to put all of this into a brief description of how Prime truly works, people might not buy the product, because other products do not share the same information; they would assume Amquel converts ammonia to a non-toxic state permanently, because it doesn't state that the "ammonia will convert back to its' toxic state" after a certain period of time.

                        Although the scientist at seachem know Amquel is worse than Prime and the conversion of ammonia from non-toxic to toxic after a certain amount of time works in a similar manner for both products, they wouldn't tell you the "Cons" of their product.

                        I think it would just be wise to dose Prime every 24 to 48 hours, until the ammonia is down to a safe level. For a quarantine or an uncycled tank, this applies as well, however, it should also state that Stability should be used in conjunction.
                        Whow there. Now you're talking about a serious issue. :)
                        If Kordon says its permanent and you say it, isn't aren't you going to seriously upset them?

                        You also appear to be putting opinionated disparaging words into a SeaChem employee. Can I ask where you got this opinion from?
                        :-)

                        Lastly let me get this straight, Seachem are agreeing that Prime reverts its non-toxic ammonia salt back into NH3+ again after approximately 24 hours.

                        I need to get this right as I'll probably be using this info on our web site soon.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Prime lifetime in the tank

                          Clarification: I have not stated anything in regard to whether or not any particular ammonia binder, other than ours, will rerelease. I simply said that this is something that could potentially occur when using Prime. We are not positive that this could not happen so we therefore do not state it.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Prime lifetime in the tank

                            [QUOTE=Whow there. Now you're talking about a serious issue. :)
                            If Kordon says its permanent and you say it, isn't aren't you going to seriously upset them?

                            You also appear to be putting opinionated disparaging words into a SeaChem employee. Can I ask where you got this opinion from?
                            :-)[/QUOTE]

                            You should really try to understand something, before giving your own opinion of others. I wasn't giving "opinionated disparaging words". If not, Tech Support LK would not have agreed with my post or my opinion. I was giving examples of what other people might think of, when they see that Prime lasts "temporarily", while Amquel lasts forever - which is not true, however, there's no proof of any information on the product (Amquel) description regarding the conversion of non-toxic ammonia to toxic ammonia after a certain amount of time.


                            Even if I was trying to upset the SeaChem employees, they wouldn't care. They make the products, they know their own "stuff", and know how to convince the customer. However, the only way a smart customer can trust a product is to hear/read comments on the majority of people who use it, and/or compare the product to similar ones from different companies. I prefer Seachem products because they manufacture "very concentrated" and "state-of-the-art" products that can be purchased at almost any pet/aquarium store at a reasonable price, and you receive exceptional support by either telephone, email, or from their support forums.
                            Last edited by LabTest57; 07-29-2009, 22:18.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Prime lifetime in the tank

                              Originally posted by LabTest57 View Post
                              You should really try to understand something, before giving your own opinion of others. I wasn't giving "opinionated disparaging words". If not, Tech Support LK would not have agreed with my post or my opinion. I was giving examples of what other people might think of, when they see that Prime lasts "temporarily", while Amquel lasts forever - which is not true, however, there's no proof of any information on the product (Amquel) description regarding the conversion of non-toxic ammonia to toxic ammonia after a certain amount of time.


                              Even if I was trying to upset the SeaChem employees, they wouldn't care. They make the products, they know their own "stuff", and know how to convince the customer. However, the only way a smart customer can trust a product is to hear/read comments on the majority of people who use it, and/or compare the product to similar ones from different companies. I prefer Seachem products because they manufacture "very concentrated" and "state-of-the-art" products that can be purchased at almost any pet/aquarium store at a reasonable price, and you receive exceptional support by either telephone, email, or from their support forums.
                              LabTest57, thank you for your kind words. We would never purposely mislead a hobbyist about our products. It is not our intent to give misinformation or not tell the whole story in order to persuade someone to buy our products. We at Seachem realize that it is support from the consumers that will make our business continue to thrive.

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