Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Flourite Substrate Cardinal Tetras Clarity Plants and poor quality instructions

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Flourite Substrate Cardinal Tetras Clarity Plants and poor quality instructions

    Remember how New York City looked after the attacks? White dust on everyone, everywhere on everything. Well, Flourite will do the exact same thing to your aquarium, except it’s not a white dust but crap brown.

    I have not had a single death or problem with any aquariums for close to 3 years besides some hair algae. Im familiar with Diana Walstad /Takashi Amano and their recommendations. At first I was not too concerned about the cloudiness as it stated on the horribly misleading directions
    "Slight initial cloudiness is normal and will clear rapidly (2–12 hours)." Slight is misleading and rapidly is ridiculous.

    Well it has been 144hrs (6days) and although the brown cloud has partially settled on the top half of the aquarium, the bottom half still looks like lake Langano in Ethiopia. And the rest of the water still has a very milky appearance to it.

    Following the directions on the package the use of Seachem Flourite, wasted $14 of water, killed as of today, 5 of my cardinal tetras ($25), which are the first deaths in 2yrs 9months, ruined the color of all my plants by covering them in dust ($45+) which must be brushed off since it does not rinse off, and doing so damages the leaves. Most importantly however the use of Flourite wasted about 6 hrs of my life (priceless but if you paid, worth about 12 an hr to me = $72). This is not mentioning all the frustration esp when losing fish that you have had for 3 years.
    Total cost of using Flourite THUS FAR = $151. This does not include the $60 I paid for the substrate.

    Im guessing if anyone is reading this for help with their Flourite, it is most likely too late for you, because you, like I, read the directions and took them for what they are worth. Which is pretty much nothing. Im writing this for all the people who went through the experience I did and for all the people who will inevitably have the same experience after using Flourite for the first time.

    I being a satcom engineer not an aquarist, spent a couple of hours reading about Seachem and Flourite. Based upon my horrible experience using this substrate and after reading online I found numerous people with the exact same experience using Flourite and the same frustrations. I believe Seachem probably uses a couple of squirts from a spray bottle to wash their 'mined' flourite by the tonne. Placing flourite in a bag and brutally crushing it, does not produce even a remote amount of residual dust as is in the "PRE-WASHED" gravel contains. Squirt bottle anyone? Many users recommend using Eco-Complete which is 'cut and dump'.

    So the Golden question is WHY? Why would SeaChem neglect to mention that without rinsing the substrate, your mature, beautiful and established aquarium will be completely ruined?

    I think I know why…… It’s not reasonable to say Seachem simply doesnt know how horribly written the directions are because the directions are not horrible – to seachem. I believe they have been tailored exactly as is, designed only to reveal partial insight into the product. Again Why would SeaChem do this?

    Well for 1) I suspect, they hardly rinse it to save on time, water, transportation and production costs.
    2) Truly “washing” as is stated on the bag not “rinsing” the product would wash away volume and weight, adding to the cost of production.
    I weighed my bag of 20lb Flourite. After a real wash which will take about 1hr 15mins per bag, my 20lb bag completely drained, only weighed 17.8lbs. That is a loss of 11% of your product after rinsing.
    - That right off the bat is a 10+% savings for SeaChem….
    3) So they can sell you Clarity and other filters etc to clear up the problem
    4) Because the bottom line is profit.

    What did i do to remedy this horrible experience? I took out the gravel washed it and weighed it and will be returning it. I cannot say the substrate itself is bad because I never used it, but I did use the instructions that it came with and they suck.

    There are numerous companies out there that provide equally decent products for the same price or slightly more. Because Seachem does not provide reliable directions to their products, I cannot take a chance of ruining any other established aquariums, killing my fish, wasting my money, all due to poor instructions.

    3 magic words that can and could have provided an infinetely better customer experience with Seachems Flourite: RINSE RINSE RINSE!!!! However this may affect the bottom line.

    Because if you dont rinse, you might as well use your aquarium for a toilet, or dont plan on having clear water for weeks, or ever rearranging any plants or rearranging anything, because after the 2wks you waited for it to clear, you kick up all that dust all over again trying to do anything. I read online that one aquarist stated it took "3 years" until there was minimal kickup dust.
    And this is from 2005 -
    http://badmanstropicalfish.com/discus/messages/18/34115.html?1107389035

    Questions:
    1. Does the use of Flourite that has not been washed extensively increase the TDS levels of the water to horrible levels?
    2. Who does quality control and market research - can i get some of the stuff they are smoking?
    3. Who wrote the copy write for Flourite? Please inform me, so i can have my 6th grade cousin give him a lesson in writing relevant information.
    4. Who approved such horrible copy write and are they a share holder?
    5. Dont you have somone that tracks online experience with your products, who can target and minimize concerns and frustrations thus avoiding people who rant on like i do. I still haven’t gone to many other forums/blogs or posted youtube videos. If seachem wont bother saving people like myself all the trouble, someone else should..

    Thanks to Flourite I have had my first deaths in 2 years and 9 months. Surely one claim will be that nothing is leeched in the water to kill fish. How about stress. How about the fish being blind or how about the dust affecting their sense of smell. Or how about them simply losing the will to live since they probably think they've already died and gone to aqauarium hell...

    P.s. Also having to wait 3 days for this account to be approved so i can ask, what should i do about the cloudyness, did not help your case at all. Most military forums where discussions take place on some what classified details dont require a waiting period to post, but Seachem needs to take a clear look into themselves or is the water simply to muddy because the used fluorite?

    From SeaChems own site by one of their customers

    “It should state, "Rinse the living ka ka out of this, or you will experience deja vu!" ;) “
    http://www.seachem.com/support/forums/showthread.php?t=2156&highlight=%22rinse&page=2
    I hope someone will think before using Flourite and Especially without rinsing the ka ka out of it. And sorry to the person who must reply to this. I know most people arent like me....Cheers


    Here are just a few links to people with the same problems and only on the seachem website. This issue was evident at least by 07 yet Seachem has done nothing…

    03-22-2009
    1) http://www.seachem.com/support/forums/showthread.php?p=4915&highlight=flourite#post4915
    Seachem Customer: “tank water clarity after adding the rinsed substrate is little to none. Pump has been on and off over the past couple of days trying to get the particulates to settle”

    02-04-2009
    2) http://www.seachem.com/support/forums/showthread.php?p=4554&highlight=flourite#post4554
    Seachem Customer: “put about two cups of flourite in one end of the tank and buried it under the "regular" gravel. I stopped because the tank clouded terribly -- I mean, I expected it to cloud, but I had no idea it was going to be so murky.”
    Partial response from tech support: “You're not alone; there are others who have experienced this as well :-) Flourite can become dusty during the shipping process; it is highly recommended that you rinse it before adding it to a tank.”

    12-09-2008
    3) http://www.seachem.com/support/forums/showthread.php?t=2156&highlight=flourite
    Seachem Customer: “I did not rinse the Fluorite gravel good enough and the whole tank is cloudy. I cannot even see the back of the tank, and it is not settling out.”
    Partial response from tech support:
    “Clarity will help with the cloudiness”

    Seachem Customer continued: “I have read on various forums now that several people seem to favor doing multiple (5-10...or more)washes on their bags of Fluorite until the cloudiness settles within a few seconds. Given my current situation, I would tend to agree.”
    Partial response from tech support: As far as rinsing goes, the best idea is to rinse and rinse the Flourite until the water comes out almost clear.
    Seachem Customer continued: “ Ok, I gave up and decide to vacuum all the water out, cleaning the gravel as much as possible in the process. I then took all the gravel back out and seperated as much of the Onyx sand as possible. I took small buckets of the gravel and rinsed them out with a hose several times until I could actually see the gravel (~8 washes). There was a layer of slimy film on the tank, heater, filter that had to be wiped down. Then I added the gravel back, and began filling it with water again. The water looks much better...still a bit cloudy, but the majority settled out as I added more water. I can finally see all the way through the tank!”

    04-29-2008
    4) http://www.seachem.com/support/forums/showthread.php?p=3778&highlight=flourite#post3778
    I tried first without the extra washing of the fluorite and had everything in place waiting for plants. The night before the plants were to arrive I modified my "aquascape" plan and the particles were just too much. I emptied the tank, removed the flourite in about 15 pound increments and washed it thoroughly
    Partial response from tech support:
    Thank you for the follow up. Rinsing does help quite a bit.

    06-13-2007
    5) http://www.seachem.com/support/forums/showthread.php?t=1167&highlight=flourite
    Seachem Customer : “Any suggestions? Any tips for "rinsing" the Flourite? It's so dirty and full of fine particles, and rinsing just once or twice isn't working.”
    Partial response from tech support:
    Probably the best way to remove residual dust is to screen it. this can be accomplished in a few different ways but the principle is the same. You can take a common screen from a window and spread your gravel out over it. Then take a hose and pour water over it until the water comes out from under the screen clean. Another suggestion is take a cover from a reptile tank. These have a fine screen and a plastic border to keep material from washing away. Yet another way to do this is to simply build your own rinsing apparatus using wood and screen. Make sure the screen is fine enough so that only dust washes though it.
    Another method is by filling up a bucket halfway with your gravel, then filling the bucket with water . Stir up the gravel and pour out the water. you can also just let the bucket continue to fill with water and let it overflow. This can be don outside or in a sink.

  • #2
    Re: Flourite Substrate Cardinal Tetras Clarity Plants and poor quality instructions

    I'm sure Seachem will put this "stuff" in the directions next time. However, no matter what type of gravel, decor, filter, etc. that I put in my tank I would always do a pre-wash even if the directions do not state it. It's something that everyone should do. My father always gave me this advice after I had contructed my 3000 gallon pond w/ cascade, which dumps into a 1000 gallon pond. The thing is, even if Seachem pre-washes the flourite it can not be gauranteed that the shipping and handling of the product will absorb dust, crumble, and lose quality from humidity and/or heat. This is why the customer should also pre-wash any decor. that will be added to an aquarium/pond.
    Last edited by LabTest57; 08-20-2009, 18:59.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Flourite Substrate Cardinal Tetras Clarity Plants and poor quality instructions

      I am very sorry that you feel so horribly about your experience with Flourite. We are certainly not a company that tries to be misleading or uninformative with our product labeling as you have so quickly assumed. I feel it is necessary to point out how many thousands of people use this product and are very successful with it. I am quite surprised that even during your "couple of hours reading about Seachem and Flourite", you did not come across any information/suggestions regarding how to most easily rinse and and add the substrate to your tank. Upon a simple google search using the keyword "Flourite", I found several sites discussing how people use various methods to rinse (or in some cases, even not rinse) the gravel before adding it. This is neither here nor there as I do agree that it is up to the manufacturer to provide the customer with as much useful information as possible. I will definitely present your suggestions to the people who decide the wording on the labels and possibly on the next run of labels, they will take your recommendations into consideration.

      Next paragraph to address:

      "I think I know why…… It’s not reasonable to say Seachem simply doesnt know how horribly written the directions are because the directions are not horrible – to seachem. I believe they have been tailored exactly as is, designed only to reveal partial insight into the product. Again Why would SeaChem do this?

      Well for 1) I suspect, they hardly rinse it to save on time, water, transportation and production costs.
      2) Truly “washing” as is stated on the bag not “rinsing” the product would wash away volume and weight, adding to the cost of production.
      I weighed my bag of 20lb Flourite. After a real wash which will take about 1hr 15mins per bag, my 20lb bag completely drained, only weighed 17.8lbs. That is a loss of 11% of your product after rinsing.
      - That right off the bat is a 10+% savings for SeaChem….
      3) So they can sell you Clarity and other filters etc to clear up the problem
      4) Because the bottom line is profit."

      Flourite is a clay substrate that certainly can cause quite a mess in certain situations. It is not necessary to rinse it several times over as you will continue to get sediment washed away each time. The best way to install it is to rinse it once, put it into the tank, and fill the tank very slowly (or by other methods recommended on the internet). It would be very difficult for us to rinse the Flourite enough to ensure that when it arrives in the customer's hands, it is clean and ready to go into the aquarium. The simple grinding of the substrate against itself in transportation and bagging would put us right back where we started. All of that sediment being washed away is actually useful product being wasted. If we wanted so badly to sell Clarity along with the Flourite, we'd put that on the label to ensure the sale. Costing you more money is not our intention.

      Questions:
      1. Does the use of Flourite that has not been washed extensively increase the TDS levels of the water to horrible levels?

      No; Flourite's minerals are not dissolved into the water, they are extracted by plant's roots.

      2. Who does quality control and market research - can i get some of the stuff they are smoking?

      We have a Research Director who does the quality control and the President of our company does the market research. Both are non-smokers.


      3. Who wrote the copy write for Flourite? Please inform me, so i can have my 6th grade cousin give him a lesson in writing relevant information.

      Not really sure why the copyright is of importance in this discussion.

      4. Who approved such horrible copy write and are they a share holder?

      Same as above.

      5. Dont you have somone that tracks online experience with your products, who can target and minimize concerns and frustrations thus avoiding people who rant on like i do. I still haven’t gone to many other forums/blogs or posted youtube videos. If seachem wont bother saving people like myself all the trouble, someone else should..

      We do. That is actually what I am doing at this very moment :) I will pass your complaints along.



      I am sorry that you lost your fish, however, that is a risk you take when moving them to a new aquarium. From what it sounds like (and please correct me if I am wrong), you set up the tank and moved the fish to it all in the same day? This would suggest that you did not cycle this new tank before adding the fish. Fish can become stressed due to a number of things and certainly by being moved to a brand new home that rapidly. I do sympathize with you having lost your fish and never like to hear that animals may have suffered. I do not, however, think it was because of the Flourite. There could have been many factors involved here other than cloudiness caused by Flourite. Did you use all brand new water for the new tank setup? Were the fish acclimated to this new environment before being switched over? Were there more fish in the tank than just 5 Cardinal Tetras? If so, did these other fish survive? We would be more than happy to try to help troubleshoot further with this if you would like.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Flourite Substrate Cardinal Tetras Clarity Plants and poor quality instructions

        Seachem is being accused of misleading customers with their product information. Seachems website states: "Although pre-washed, it may be rinsed before use to remove residual dust".
        "May" is not "should". Tech Support LK contradicts the company line saying: "The best way to install it is to rinse it once...". I also note other Tech Support comments quoted in the original post.
        It is fair comment from this customer that Seachem, (like other product manufacturers) downplay the need to wash gravels prior to use. This helps a customer to choose their product. When the feedback from customers points this error out, Seachem can not be surprised.
        It would be appropriate for Seachem to apologise and immediately modify their product information (both labels and website) rather than attempt to pass some blame to a customer who followed their instructions.
        Last edited by Cardinals; 08-22-2009, 21:31.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Flourite Substrate Cardinal Tetras Clarity Plants and poor quality instructions

          Please understand that when we say that we will pass the complaints/suggestions along to the appropriate people, we are not just saying that to get you off our back. We do strongly value consumer feedback and make every attempt to modify labeling where we feel it is warranted. I guess I should have stated that it is from my experience that rinsing the substrate once before putting it in the tank and filling the tank slowly is the best way to install the substrate and my preferred method. However, this is not required and that is why the label says "may" instead of "must". There are many people who use this substrate and choose not to rinse it before adding it to the tank for purposes of not washing away any beneficial product that they have paid for. Again, I will send my higher-ups a link to this thread so they may see this complaint and let them decide what they want to do. I do represent the company, but am also a hobbyist myself and am therefore inclined to share my opinions and experiences. Keep in mind please that even if a label change is implemented, it most likely will not show up on the market for several months to even a couple of years depending on how many current labels are in inventory. Unfortunately, this is not something that occurs overnight. We do thank you for your suggestions.

          Comment

          Working...
          X